First I would like to say that, you people take this way out of hand. Yes it is Amway, but you know what it does work. You dont have to be like snaby ect. to suceed in this buisness. I dont go to rallies ect, and when I envite people I tell them that it is Amway. Yes they get turned off but Let them know im just going to show the plan and if they are not interested that is fine. You know its not like they are trying to get you to make money, but to earn money. They never said you had to join so why blame them for your faults. Hey it doesnt work for everybody but im sure if you try hard enough and i dont mean spend your life working at it. Slowly things will come into place. So what if you dont make money right away. They never said you would to begin with. From what i remember they said it takes time and its just another job. But the difference here is you will eventually start making money where you dont have to work anymore. Im sorry it did not work out for you since you did not look at it clearly, but please dont blame it on Amway. Its all up to you wether you want it to work or not. By the way yes the products are costly but you know that you get pv points. Wich does pay off when you get so many. Again dont blame Amway, blame yourselfs.

Sidney,

I just wanted to send you a note thanking you for taking the time to document all the Amway articles in your home page. I joined Amway in March of this year, and after a couple of months of excitement, became an inactive distributor. In May I started reading the postings on Usenet and that made me start to question what I was in, but I found the majority of posts to be emotion-based pissing matches devoid of factual information.

However, I did find your posts to be more intelligent than most, and they were a refreshing source of true information. I stopped reading them in early June, but I just started looking at them again this week. When I discovered you now have a home page about Amway, I was excited to find such a comprehensive listing of facts presented in an objective manner.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work!

I was recently approached by an Amway distributor. He presented a "slightly" different angle on the system than you - he failed to mention certain things brought up within the pages of your web site. Thanks for the insight.

This is the first place I stopped in my net-search on Amway so I will leave you with the two major blemishes on my introduction to Amway.

1. Time. 2 hours a day, 3 days a week. You'll be rich in 5 years! Hmmm, I have already spent 6 hours watching introductory videos and attending a meeting and I am not even selling anything (or anybody). Looks like financial overhead isn't the only thing that is kept quiet - time overhead is ignored as well.

2.  Facts. Where are they?  It's all talk...
    him>  Trust me.
    me>  I don't know you.
    him>  Look at the circles.  When you are here, you make money off
    the guy here, here, here,...
    me>  You're there now and you want me to be here?
    him>  Just to start...
    me>  So, making money off me is an incentive to recruit me?
    him>  Sure...
    me>  And you think your words are unbiased?
    him>  Have I lied to you before?
    me>  Got me there.
    him>  So, trust me.
    me>  What is your net income from this business after deducting 
    any expenses you would not incure if you were not in this
    business?
    him>  Err,... What?...  Trust me.
    me>  Buh-bye.

Do you have a fax number? I can fax the test to you if this is any good. I could stand the Amway hype if their products are good enough to live up to it, but when they are universally poor performers AND the most expensive, then it is too much. If they were a normal company rather than a religion, then they would go under.

I am passing your compilation of test results to a friend of mine who (briefly) made a mistake of flatting with 2 (!)Amway salesmen. It got so bad in the end that his friends wouldn't come around as the flatmates were always trying to sell them Amway products.

I've just read EVERY single article in your web page, and I think you've just saved me a great deal of time and money. So far, I haven't spent a dime (except for gas to meet my "sponsor"). I think I will go to tonight's meeting just to see what all the hullaboo is about. I also think I will give my "sponsor" this internet address. :') Thanx.

Sidney:

Your reaction to Amway and the distributor organization is that of someone who could not make it in the business world owning their own business. No one forces tools, product or any other materials on distributors. It is the distributors desire to become more successful than he/she already is so they are willing to pay the price of building a business. Your text files seem shocked that it takes a couple to several years to make money. If you ever owned a business on your own, you would note that a considerable sum of money would be necessary to build your company and then you wouldn't turn a profit for several years. Sidney, grow up! The people who begin their Amway businesses know what they are doing, from the Diamond level distributors to those who have a zero downline.

Your attitude is so incredibly pathetic that you would actually waste your time to develop a page and all the hotlinks to hide the fact that you couldn't get past your fears and build an Amway or other type of business. Your problem is also obviously containing you to express yourself only on the internet not to living, breathing people. You yourself have become a fanatic or cultish personality by trying to attack other people's prosperity.

Thank you for maintaining your web home page on Amway, the Untold Truths.

I was approached, yesterday, by a distributor, who convinced me to meet with him because he said that I was selected for an interview with the possibility of joining a new startup firm. He said that the firm does consulting to small business startups. He said that in just a "few" hours per week, I could make a "very lucrative consulting business."

He was very evasive, and started the interview with a set of personal questions, i.e. what do you want out of life, are you happy with your level of income, do you like the number of hours you work, would you like to take vacations more often, etc.? He wanted to see if I could qualify!

After an hour of his devious questioning, I finally got him to tell me that he was recruiting me to become an Amway distributor. Everything he told me was contained in the text of the class action law suit which you posted!

I finally terminated the interview after much too long (probably 1 1/2 hours). However, I felt like he had literally scammed me out of 3 hours of my evening (including driving time). I then did a search on the net and found my way to your server.

Thank you, again, for maintaining this server; it certainly helped me get relevant information about this scam.

[from a later message]

A refinement to my story:

I listened to the voice mail and here it was, almost verbatim:

[from Amway recruiter, on my voicemail]

"Hello, I would like to interview you for a job as a parttime consultant. The job will be very lucrative. I got the graduate list from *** University, and that's how I got your name. We have recruited graduates from *** University, and have done extremely well. The job is to act as a consultant to small businesses, helping them get into new markets."

As it turned out, none of this was true. It was simply a ruse to get me out of my house at 8:30pm to come to an "interview" when all he was trying to do was to sell me on the concept of becoming an Amway distributor. He says that he only has recruited 4 people in 4 months, only two of whom came from *** University, and only two of whom are "sort of" active. Doesn't sound to me like he's doing "extremely well."

My experience with Amway was very much as your articles describe. I had joined a group in Calgary Alberta Canada under the World Wide Dreambuilders facade. They expected me to go broke to attend seminars that if I missed "I would never make it this business" They said that if they were visiting my house and found any product that was available thru Amway but was not Amway they would flush it down the toilet. Neddless to say I informed them that they were not welcome in my hiuse anyway and they would need an Amway flashlight to find the philosophy when I told them it to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. I informed Amway of thier pressure to buy non Amway motivational materials and to be on a constant supply of this drivel by way of a "subscription" to these materials. All of course were very expensive and essential. I watched the family member who introduced me (of course by not mentioning even denying it was Amway) to World Wide Dreambuilders, get completely sucked into to the hype and revere the leaders as gods. I still feel that the main purpose of this group was to recruit distributers not to sell much product to the public and feed off them as the end users. When I told Amway of thier activities that were against the rules and even had evidence of it, they listened in an apparently concerned manner and sent me a hat and T-shirt (oh joy!) then did nothing. I must admit the major problem we had was getting out without being released in a fashion that we did not have to be inactive for six months to be able to join another group. We waited for six months and found one of the good guys who were there if you needed them but never pushed you. The reason this guy was good was not only because he was unlike World Wide Dreambuilders but also because he did not follow the Amway doctrine of making new distributers a top priority.

Eventually I realized that you cannot make a lot of money without becoming like them so I left but still use some Amway products that are good and good value.

You sure seem to spend alot of time justifying your broke mentality. Have a good life and I will drop u a line when I retire!!!

It is terribly late as I write. But the "tapes, rallies, and functions", or whaterver, are still planted in me so diligently that I feel guilty if I do not attend these "fun, oh you will have so much fun" functions". And I admire most of those speaking the spiel. There are may retired people in Amway, and they are fervent in asking us all to be active too. So, how does one separate the corporate crap from a good business opportunity? One could cease the tapes, rallies, and functins, and get ahead? My upline are desperate to make money.

I have been lurking here for several months. Both of you have provided excellent entertainment for the masses. Having "served" time in the "business" (God, I'm so sorry...) from 1980-1983, I am well aware of the obstacles and illicit behavior that the "opportunity" presents.

Has anyone attempted to enlighten the masses with a couple of Microeconomic Principles: "Opportunity Cost" and "Economic Profit"? "Simple" econ theory can be applied to test the potential benefits without having to wield ad hominems, etc.

Opportunity Cost(s) (There's no such thing as a free lunch) are DISCARDED choices that are made when evaluating or acting on an ecomonic problem. In order for one to have an "opportunity cost," the presumption is that there must be an element of SCARCITY (some limited item: time, money, etc.)

Determining the Opportunity Costs for an Amway "career," one could apply Time with family, Going to College, Attending Vocational Training, Investing in Mutual Bonds, etc. as being valid choices.

Economic Profit examines the "quality" of work that is yielded and compared to other activities. Economic Profit differs from Accounting Profit (Revenues - Costs = Profit/Loss) Economic Profit takes into account all INTANGIBLE expenses relating to a busingess venture. For example, in "building" an Amway business, one needs to spend considerable time, money, energy, etc. Using predicted metrics, how does the outcome compare to what the person is presently doing or could be doing, and further, what are the Opportunity Costs in relationship to the problem? A question could then be posed to the Amway individual: Why are you working in a business that has a consistent NET LOSS per month, when the time could be spent doing A,B, or C??

SUNK COSTs can also be applied to the Amway business. Showing someone how "real" businesses apply rationale towards funding a business that is showing a loss on the the balance sheet/income statement might be benefitial (i.e., do REVENUES exceed VARIABLE COSTS for the measured accounting period(s).....if NO, then SHUT THE BUSINESS DOWN!!!)

I do feel bad for those who get trapped by the cult behavior of the group. More than once, I felt the agenda was a RELIGIOUS indoctrantion....I had been insulted by morning meetings that were in fact "prayer sessions...." My upline discounted the religious zealots as being "fringe," yet still encouraged my wife and I to attend these events as "growing" experiences. I can't tell you the shame on looking back on friends and family that I tried to "sponsor" anything. It is with great sorrow that I spent THOUSANDS of dollars and HUNDREDS of hours of time, that would have been better spent doing more productive things in life. Yet, people do CRAVE and DESIRE good/better things for their families and their well-being.

Education is important.....yours is entertainment, in the spirit of "debate." Maybe some "common sense" can be shared with others to enrich and develop the lives of potentially productive working indivduals.

Sidney,

What do you do? Do you have nothing better to than slam Amway distributers? If you put this kind of effort into helping the disabled or the homeless you might even have a positive impact on the world instead of just generating a bunch of piddley garbage on the net.

After reviewing your pages on Amway, I was wondering if you had any Consumer Reports information on the glass cleaner SeeSpray. I hate the stuff and cannot believe that it actually compares to national brands.

Also, I was told that the Amway water treatment system rated number ONE with Consumer Reports for the amount and variety of contaminents it can remove. How recent is your information? The new system (released within the last year) is touted as much improved--and much more expensive--$400+.

Again, appreciate your taking time to reply. I have been a pretty good businessman over my practice years, so meant by the word 'negative', how did you get to a negative view by perusing the facts. That is all.

Amway Corp says that 71% of its prices are equal to or lower than retailers out there. That means that 29% are more costly. I always was impressed that Amway Corp. would state it as a plain fact. And I have found, through the eyes of a profoundly skeptical wife, that some products are outrageously overpriced (tho they do offer vitamins, or something adding value over the usual supermarket product), while some, like men's clothes, and home and car care products, are REALLY cheaper. I know the man's area prices. One product in particular, I know to be a savings of $96 dollars over any other fuel- injection cleaner. I check the prices of what I buy in the stores. The stores sell that for about $1.28 on average, here, and the Amway product comes down to $.25 cents for the same thing. Men's clothes are certainly cheaper. As my son is at Wharton, I live in an all-female house, so auto products do not get any consideration. But my wife and older daughter are spending the rest of this week in the East exploring colleges (Georgetown, Brown, and UMichigan, now there is a reason to WANT to believe), so I have stocked the house with Amway food. Delicious (versus fast foot and frozen food, not cooking from scratch), and, because not frozen, available by microwave in,at most, 1 1/2 minutes.

And, personally, I see zip wrong with a man enriching himself by doing something that enlarges Amway Corporation or any other corp., eg, teaching non- salespeople how to sell distributorships. I do not like those activities, but I have surely seen the greater number who REALLY do. One leads to the Vox Populi, if one wants to be successful.

I value your views. I am a businessman, and I value all views and facts. The 'negative' to Amway for me is that I get nothing by rah-rah stuff. I am going to give it a go thru 10 people sponsored, then I am going to sit down and look at income vs. expenses, how people are helped or not. I keep meticulous records on this computer. Now, I see a circle, if you will, in which whatever is overspent is compensated for by the real discount on the back in, the bonus check. The bonus check MUST be considered in the whole equation. If I sponsor 6 people, and do indeed get $150, then I will probably cover all costs, barely. I think. I shall see. Nothing is better than doing someing with intensity and skepticism, then finding out if it works, or does not. I have joined in more stupid business enterprises, and joined a few extremely successful ones, only by listening to every spiel that ever came along.

So, I will see, and pass on to you whatever I find, good and bad. This is not a cult for me, just a business.

Hello!

I am new to the Amway business and was poking around the net to find out what was there. I must admit I'm shocked by what I have read here and wanted to offer to you an alternative situation.

I have been in and active for 5 months and have built the business to 1000PV; 3 wide and 4 in depth. I am in Dexter's group and use the INTERNET system. My upline is nothing like what has been represented here. I am not required to attend any function, buy any tape, or spend any money appart from getting a kit. My sponsor and upline do not ignore me, coerce me, or tell me I will fail if I do not use the system. I was told that I will have a _greater_ chance of success, but that Dex's system was not _required_ for success. This greater chance of success is based on 1) how many people who use the system and who are direct or higher (all or almost all) and 2) how many people don't use the system and who make it to direct (none or almost none). This doesn't mean it can't be done, it's just harder and there are few examples of people who don't use the system and who still make it to direct or higher. I am in debt myself which is why I started my Amway business. I am therefore _careful_ what I buy and what I do not buy. I can understand the situations of those who have posted about upline "strong-arming", but that is NOT the way my line of sponsorship does business. The problem is that since we all own our own business, we are free to make decisions about how we run our business. The problem seems to be with their upline, not Amway or Dexter's system. My line of sponsorship doesn't do any of the things mentioned in any of your posted essays on Amway, straight up to my diamond.

My upline has considerably more people than I do, but he has a limit on how much time he can spend with his downline. *IF* he/she doesn't know you real well, (which can happen as you build the Amway business), and *IF* there are more people who want time with him/her than is available, the *ONLY* measure of someone's commitment to building the business (outside of sponsorship rate) is whether or not they are on SOT (standing order tape) and whether or not they attend functions. When time is at a premium, one must spend it wisely. In this case it means spending time with those who *statistcally* will yield the highest results (all things being equal); i.e. those plugged into the system. As for losing money, net income, etc, I have lost money. When *I* show the plan, *I* am honest about what it takes to build the business. I am honest because my sponsor was honest with me, because his sponsor was honest with him. We have a saying, "The good news about the business is that everything is duplicatable; the bad news about the business is that everything is duplicatable." The point is, what you are taught, you will reproduce. These other lines of sponsorship I submit to you are doing what they were shown to do. One bad apple can spoil the whole Amway barrel. This is what has happened. But not all the apples are rotten. I have downline who are nore broke than I; who have $100 per month spending cash after bills. I do not expect that person to do 100PV (not possible), or attend many functions. That person always asks to hear some of my tapes, gets out and meets people, and actively builds the business. I spend time with this person because I am a good friend and I know everything is being done to build the business dispite financial difficulties. Whenever a higher pin is in town, I always stick up for this person in front of my upline. Whenever someone asks about SOT or functions, I explain the situation and all is OK.

As for diamonds making money on tapes, that seemed a given to me anyway. Most people should know that tapes are not that expensive. But, statistically, you do have a greater chance of success using the tapes vs not using them. I have lost some good people in these few months due to them not listening to tapes. I know my attitude before I got in. I mocked/laughed at my sponsor for months before I took a look at the business. I now have to eat those words. I know that without the tapes, I would have quit. It is also fact, that before there was a system, it took much longer to make it in this business. With the system, we have seen people make diamond in 21 months and direct in 9 months! That is amazing! These people are the exception, but there wasn't any of that happening before the system. Most people don't have that inner burn of a salesman and need motivation. That is the root of the whole system; motivation. There is so much negative press about Amway that people will quit even if they are not seeing the same activities in there upline that are mentioned here on this homepage. I don't see that kind of stuff happening, but some of my downline might quit if they saw what has happened to someone else. Motivation is key to success in whatever you do. Those tapes, books, and functions give that motivation. The simple fact is, anybody who has gone far in thier line of work, be it a sportsman, politician, moviestar, whatever, get paid to motivate, speak, and write books. People want to hear whay they have to say and how they got where they are. It is only normal to make money at it as well. Hopefully, no one really has a problem with some ball player writing a book about how he made it to the top and make millions off of it. Hopefully no one has a problem with an Amway diamond doing the same. I do agree that coercion is wrong and should not be condoned. If that has happened, I am sorry. There are lines of sponsorship that do NOT do that. If anyone wants to be active and build the business but doesn't want to be coerced into anything...shop around!! Find someone else who won't do that. Email me < g> . I know that may mean starting over. It can still be worth it.

One other comment, if you please. All the statistics about how long it takes and "are you average": get over it. I work a full time job, play on the computer, and still have time to build the business. Could I do it faster? Yes. Would I be making more money?? Yes. The question is do I want to?? No. For whatever reason, I have chosen to build at my pace. With that attitude, it may take me 28 years to go direct, but I doubt it. If anyone gives 100% to any one task they are performing for the alloted time, amazing things will happen. This means while at work, give 100% of your effort; while at play, give 100% of your effort; while building an Amway business (even if it is 1 hour every other day), give it 100% of your effort. Playing a numbers game on a people based system is silly. I could find 1 person motivated enough to be the next Dexter Yager. My business would grow beyond any statistical average. The point is, to say that with a 23% rate of growth one could reach direct after 28 years, is not really a fair representation of a dynamic business based on dynamic people. Static numbers don't place well on people. I would wager that most of those people who have posted here didn't give the business 100% effort. They were in 3, 4, 5, 7.5 years and never turned a profit and even have tax records to prove it. Great. If they ever watched TV more than a few (3-4) hours per week, or slept more than 6-7 hours daily (including Saturdays and Sundays) then they didn't give 100% effort and its no wonder they weren't successful. I am not judging them. But to start a business, even an unconventional one, and expect it to grow fast with little effort or without investment is naive. Ask anyone who owns a restaraunt. They can work 60-80 hours a week, put up tens of thousands of dollars for the building, employees, food, equipment, etc and generally lose money for the first few years. (Some make it, some don't). Amway is a business like and unlike anyother. If anyone put that amount of time into this business, even 40 hours per week, I would guess they would make a profit. Its simply a matter commitment. I have worked 2 full time jobs before to make ends meet- 80 hours a week, yet I am not willing to do that for my Amway business - and so neither are many others. Why is that?? For what ever reason, I know that I could have done more. I know that those who quit or who aren't making money (myself included), could have done more to build it. There simply isn't a commitment. That is what tapes are for - motivation. When I make diamond, I will speak too. I will probably get paid for it. I will probably write books. I will probably make money on that too. That is part of the game. I won't begrudge anyone who has done more in this business than I have.

The bottom line is this: this business is not for everyone, though everyone can do it. If after 20 years of real effort I or anyone else makes it to diamond, will it be worth it?? Is the money worth the effort?? Will I ever recoupe my losses for the first few years?? I think so. Even if I never make it that far but stop at direct, will the effort be worth it?? I think so. If I never make it at all but someone in my downline does, will it be worth it?? I think so. Many do not. But please, don't steal my dreams. Don't stereotype Dexter Yager or Bill Brit unless you know them personally. And please don't stereotype Amway based on your bad experiences. Some of us are doing it right, do have a dream, and believe we can make it. Please don't steal that which does not belong to you - my dream.

You may never know the value of the posts that I have just read.. I am a junior engineering major at the University of ***** and was recently approached, very unassumingly I must admit, at a supermarket by a man claiming to 'start his own business.' Being of low income (due to college expenses), I saw an opportunity to make some extra cash. After meeting with the man for an hour in our cafeteria I was curious how just by informing people that you are interested in a business you could net over $40,000 a month.. I soon recognized the actual physical diagram he drew in order to clarify things for me: a pyramid. I have heard my father criticize such programs and was suspicious when I correlated the drawing with my father's words. The man mentioned a company Amway.. A name I had heard, but not investigated. Straight from the meeting (20 min. ago) I cam to the computer labs and investigated Amway through your information network. After reading the reports I am convinced that I made the right decision... To not get involved.. Thank you for making this information available to me; it has confirmed my suspicions.

Sidney I appreciate the the information provided on this page. I have always wanted to explore both sides of Amway. I have been to a few of the recruitment seminars and have always heard the same story. It all sounds interesting at the time, but when you work the numbers and realize the true customer base, ya gotta wonder....I have had many phone calls from Amway associates to get me to join. They are all looking for the same thing...success[get me to join]! I feel like my identity is at risk when I am at those meetings. I am not a salesman so I can't compare them to sales rallies, but I feel kinda' creepy when I network with them. Don't worry, I have no desire to join, but I had to see for myself.

Thanks for the information. I've been a distributor 18 months in the World Wide organization, and have been uncomfortable with their disregard of at least two key rules in the Amway Reference Manual: 1) The Ten Customer Rule; and 2) the rule prohibiting wholesale buying clubs. When I express my concerns upline, I'm either being negative, or get nothing but canned responses that usually raise more questions than they answer. Amway Corp. appears to be apathetic as long as they are making money and cannot be tied directly to rules violations. I'm just starting to reach out for resources and found your page helpful.

You have no right to do what you are doing. The amway corporation is a fully leagle copmany.Tell me something if they were illeage would they do such things as sponser people for raceing, boating, among other things. The Amway company has millions of speekers and some of which go to schools, camps, and national events. There is no way the Amway corporatin is in any way illeagle! The lawsuits aginst the company are the illeagel part of this story. Why do you think no lawsuit aginst the company has ever gone anywhere. The only reason people file lawsuits aginst the company is so they can make a little money on the side, if you know what I mean. I see you actualy know nothing about the company itself. E-Mail me and will discuss this latter.

THE AMWAY COMPANY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A CULT! THAT MY FRIEND IS A GIANT LOAD OF BULL SHIT! I know it is you first amendment right to speek freely but this is going a little too far. write me back I'm interested to see what you have to say. (I'm not mad I just don't agree with what your saying).

Hi Sidney,

I have been lurking in the alt.business.multi-level ng for almost a year now. I have been dismayed by the amount of garbage talked about Amway and other companies. However, as an Amway distributor yet still free thinking person I felt obliged to understand some of the "negative". When telling my upline about the negativity on the "Internet" they thought I was nuts to keep looking there. "Why do you want to expose yourself to negativity" they would say. Something kept me coming back for more and now after reading all the information your web page I am totally questioning everything they ever told me in Amway.

I am in World Wide Dream Builders whose leaders are Ron & Georgia Lee Puryear out of Spokane WA. They are downline from Bill Britt and I have heard several references onstage to Britt-Worldwide, whatever that is. I must say that my skeptical inquiring mind has had a hard time accepting as truth many of the things I have heard from WWDB stages. I am a Christian and I find it difficult to believe that people who profess a love for the Lord and "Give All the Glory To Him" could get on a stage and flat out lie, or at least give such misrepresentations as you alledge. Yet, reading this information you posted, I see a lot of what is being said about the Yager/Britt organization mirrored in the Puryear organization.

We are taught to do and say substantially the same as what I am reading in your post. Although downplayed the 10 customer rule is generally at least mentioned as a legality though. We are also told that other organizations "do things differently". I am getting the impression that they are all the same. Other than small differences in language, for example I pack, D pack, (perhaps we could call them regional dialects) everyone talks the same.

I asked my upline DD about the lawsuit and he said if WWDB are not involved I should not be concerned about it, as companies are always being sued (true).

I was just exchanging e-mail with ****** and he seemd to think that WWDB are/or would be named also. Do you know what the situation is there?

Upon seeing your price comparison and comments, I was prompted to head down to Safeway and do my own. It's on my spreadsheet so I could send it to you if I figure out how. I didn't include any "concentrated" Amway products for the reasons you gave, mostly the same products you analysed and some others which I happened to pick out at random such as regular alkaline batteries, peanut butter, toilet paper etc. I based it on comparisons with brand name and generic Safeway products. I found there to be less than one percentile difference on average between Amway distrib. cost (including 4% shipping on RDC stuff and 7% (or special costs) on Catalog stuff) and buying at Safeway. The only thing I didn't take into consideration was the $2 charge every time you order from the 800 number for catalod items (I don't like that). If you look at it from a distributor point of view, selling core line products makes sense and can be profitable if you find people to pay retail for them (I like the Amway products and believe they are economical regardless of what Consumer Reports says), and buying non-core products at the same price as the store whilst upping your PV also makes sense. If you don't buy 100% of the non-core products, IE shop the catalog, then you can save money. Just because it is in the catalog doesn't mean it's automatically a good deal. I resent the we-have-it-so-I-gotta-buy-it-from-my-own-business mentality. If I cannot buy something from my own store at "wholesale" cheaper than I can get it "retail" somewhere else, then there is something wrong with my business. I guess I don't need to tell you that.

My questions are:

1) What is your agenda?

2) Were you in Amway, if so what org?

3) Do you have a copy of Directly Speaking, if so can I get a duplicate?

4) Is the Phil Kerns book in publication?

5) Are you involved in the lawsuit?

6) Is there a group of distributors who believe in Amway but not in the perversion of the system, that could exchange ideas on how to build it without BTF as, I understand, the way the business is built in Japan (Amway sales are evidently bigger there than in the US)? People do need some info on what to do next!!

I was really dissappointed to see only negative information about Amway. What about all of us happy disributors? What of the Easter Seals fundraisers? It is really sad that someone like yourself has to knock down a business that has been around for 35 years, has been without debt and successful. I am very happy with our business and our up-line. I have not seen any of the claims that you have made. In one article it stated that by the table figure, it would take 28 years to make Direct. For some, maybe. What about our up-line and many others that have made Direct and moved on. We have had people moving on so rapidly that we have had four Directs! There are several Higher level pins in our direct line, including Diamonds. As a disrtibutor on the way to Direct after only working at this thing for a year and a few months, I can see no way to justify the claims made. Have you talked to any happy people, or do you seek only the negative? It is negativity that brings people and our country down. Why not try to see the bright side of life and live like God intended us to. Oh, if Amway is a cult, then I'm glad to be a cultist. I do NOT feel that way, nor have I personally talked to anyone else that feels that way. If singing the national anthem and praying to God the Father makes this business a cult, then so be it. You are way off in your interpretation of Amway. Thank you for letting me express my opinion to you. I am in no way a legal representative of the corporation, just an independant distributor.

I am reading with interest your comments on the Amway corporation. Although I am a distributor without a horror story, I remain a skeptic, particularly about large business.

Some of your facts warrant exploration, and I am in the midst of doing that, particularly regarding the Canadian fraud situation. My early research (conducted considerably prior to my joining the system) provided me with some different perspectives.

I am writing at this time, early in my secondary research, to enquire whether you would want to receive anything I find that either puts in question your findings or supports them.

I am a member of the AMBASSADOR BUSINESS NETWORK (ABN), the only Canadian line. Our experiences here seem different from those American experiences your other writers share on the internet.

Too, your price comparisons are not consistent with our weekly "shopping basket" comparisons. Should I get the time to put together a list similar to yours, I would be happy to share that with you as well.

I appreciate, by and large, the tone your writing reflects -- while you are clearly a critic, you do not seem to be a vitriolic one. You keep the door open, therefore.

I'll get back to you once I know you would like a response from someone without horror stories -- quite the contrary, really (and I am not evangelistic about the whole matter, either).

I used to be in Amway. I thought it was interesting that you think it is a cult. I thought so, too. I was relieved to find out that someone else thought the same thing I did. I was in Amway for a year and bought the tapes.

I thought Amway was okay until about two months after I enrolled. I then felt like people were pushing me. They had this seminar in Indiana which they felt I had to go to. I felt like I was being pushed to go. I was enrolled in school and nearing the end of my math degree. Going to Indiana meant that I would be missing school for several days and be spending extra money. I was on a limited income. I was in the Boston Movement for the ICOC, another cult. I felt like these pressure tactics were the same as in ICOC. I backed off from Amway after this incident. The people who recruited me knew I came from the ICOC movement. They could sense that this confrontation with the main guy in our area gave them the idea I was thinking ICOC. They were right and denied that they were a cult.

I did not go to Indianapolis as you may have guessed. I felt like their recruiting tactics weren't totally honest. It reminded me of the ICOC recruiting tactics. I felt like this kind of manipulation was deceptive. I believe that any group that won't present the facts on price isn't totally honest. From now on, if a group refuses to present information like prices of items for price comparison, then I won't join.

I also thought it was tacky for them to deliver their political agenda. This was supposed to be a business. Will you go public on the information about Amway on national T.V.? I hope so.

Thanks for the messages. They reaffirmed what I thought about Amway with from my personal expereince.

I wish I could have surfed in to your page yesterday instead of today. I just spent $200 becoming a distributor. I suppose I am one of the lucky ones. I can terminate things now. Will they be sending me junk mail for the next 10 years? I just noticed that I also have to subscribe to their magazine to remain a distributor. Thanks for the time you must have spent organizing everything. If you have any advice I would appreciate it.

Dear Mr. Schwartz,

After reading your studies on the amway product comparison process I happened to find your statement to be very closed minded. Seeing that you were only zooming in on the disadvantages of Amway products and prices, you seemed to leave out the important facts of why prices are where they are. Amway negotiates with other companies about their products to determine what Amway desires to sell. Therefore, products sold through Amway's catalogs are merely a generic brand sitting on any store shelf. To explain the higher prices, every product Amway contains begins at store cost then there is an additional amount tacked on which is considered as the distributors bonus. So basically one would be making money off themself. Another item I would like to comment on is the quality of Amway and their products. Amway does not place their products on the market without testing them first, and no they do not test on animals! The Amway corporation has several well trained and skilled scientists specifically for the corporation to create products that are a benefit to the distributor. This company is very much into health, and environmental concerns of the individual, and providing the very best for everyone. Having the best scientists to serve you and me, this too will add in cost because they are putting quality into the product. Amway is not a corporation trying to get rich off of others, it is a company to serve people. They have found a way for individuals to be finanically free, and enjoy the freedom of life at a young age. Since you have misconceptions of the Amway Corporation you should do another study on the corporation and the price comparisons, but maybe take a little further in depth look at what the company offers before trying to belittle the company. You may very well be impressed with the research you find!

THE ARTICLES BOTHERED ME QUITE A BIT. YES I'M LEARNING ABOUT THE COMPANY. BUT I ALSO KNOW ALOT OF BEAUTIFUL INDIVIDUALS IN THE BUSINESS. ARTICLES LIKE THIS COULD RUIN THEM. THERE ARE ALOT OF DEVILS IN BIG BUSINESS......

Dear Sir, My wife and I are new Amway Distributors, having been in the business for a month and a half. I have just now discovered your posting on Amway, have printed all the articles and am about to study up on this thing. Already we have felt that the rallies, meetings, books, et al were very expensive, and the strong cult-like atmosphere is evident. Please bottom line this for us. Is the Amway plan, sans Bill Britt's expensive motivational gimmicks, a true plan that can work? I share all my info and materials to my small downline free of charge. I don't mind saying goodbye to Bill Britt and company, but I would hate to lose the hope for the future that the Amway plan provides. Can an honest couple make it in Amway on Amway's own merits? Please be frank.

CAN ALL OF THIS BE TRUE, OR IS IT JUST FROM A DISGRUNTLED EMPLOYEE.

Hi, I just heavily browsed through the homepage "amway the untold truths". Very revealing. We have frinds here who are in it and you might as well have inserted their names into it, in all the aspects, cultism, tools, expenses etc.

My question: I am looking for specific info for their organization here in Denver CO. It is called INA (as oppossed to internet with Dexter Yager corp.). Is there any one who has specific info on this "downline" that I could talk to?

Thanks for the info! I have alot of interested people here wanting to see this. It is balanced info, giving strengths/ weaknesses of your info sources, as well as evidence to back the claims up.

It' funny an amway guy here responded to my questions: Yes its amway, what do you know about it?

My response: A HELL OF ALOT, never ask a Ph.D. student to research a subject for themselves.... :-)

I would like to applaud your efforts and the content of the Amway web page. After joining and subsequently leaving Amway before losing any money, and being approached a few times since, it's good to hear that my perceptions were right on. The requirements to attend seminars, buy tapes and books, and promote 'The System' (ha) without regard to one's personal life is absurd. The one nagging question I have is that if doctors, lawyers, and other professional people are successful Amway disributors, why was I not introduced to any of these people, even after asking? Could it be because those people are not dependant soley on Amway for their income (read: not desperate) and were able recognize the farce before getting too deeply involved?

Thank you for your efforts. I hope your forum is able to help Amway prospects make an informed decission regarding their involvement after seeing both sides of the story.

I don't want to use my name in this, but would like some replies. I've been kitted recently, but don't like "the system." Actually, I'm disgusted watching people rub the money pictures, and all of that "this is how rich you'll be" garb in my face at functions, etc. Is there anyone out there that has become successful in amway without using their uplines, and without "duplicating?" Feedback please, to AntiDuplication New Distributor. THANKS!

Sydney,

Thank you for this "wealth" of information. I have been recently approached by my close friends to take part in this business. Last night, I attended an introduction meeting that was, basically a motivation meeting to peak the interest of its attendees. For 2 hours I listened to some yahoo about "wouldn't it be great to buy a brand new house or a Porsche, or go on exotic vacations". I wanted to hear the specifics about the business, but failed to hear them. After the presentation, I talked with a person in my friends' upline and he answered a "few" of my questions, but said my answers would be in the package. He said, I could borrow it, with the stipulation that we had to meet this weekend to discuss it. I made a counter offer and suggested that after I reviewed the materials, in a week or so, I would call him to meet, if I was interested in pursuing it. He didn't like that...he took back the package and I left. If that isn't high pressure, I don't know what is. I hope more people become aware of what a scam Amway really is. Thanks again

The highest volume I had achieved was 1000 pv in one month.......we bought far more stuff than we could sell (what a shock there). Regarding making money: NO. My wife and I did "retail," and we actually had regular customers, and made more than 10 separate and legitimate sales/month. If fact, even though I think that Amway was overall a large waste of valuable time and money, our Directs did act in a "responsible" and "professional" manner....They eshewed the "curiousity approach" and actually TOLD people up front what they were doing. I, on the other hand, had NO IDEA what Amway was. My wife and I were approached on a "friendship" that was started when I was on jury duty in southern California. One of the bailiffs befriended my wife, who was in her 8th month of pregnany with our first child (she went to court with me, to keep me company). The subject came up "innoncently" enough and we were given the "complete" pitch. For some reason (images conjured of "instant" success) I bought the package hook, line, and sinker. After we signed up, the next level above the direct (a Pearl Direct) encouraged us (ME) to use "curiosity approach." So, yes the approach was the same (Whatever you do, DON'T let them know it's Amway!)

I'd have to go dig up our tax returns for those years, but I believe that we spent at least $5,000/yr (not including goods for resale purchased) and probably "made" less than 10% as "gross profit" before applying cost of goods sold and other accounting principles. We had "sponsored" about 15 people, only one of the fifteen sponsored anyone beneath them.......

When I finally QUIT, I think that we had a couple hundred tapes, several dozen books, plenty of videos----- all WORTHLESS.

In the end, I got what I deserved......Too bad there aren't TRULY legitimate avenues for the "average" person to acquire skills/direction towards other/new income opportunities (not get-rich-quick/instant franchise/mega-money, down-payment schemes, etc).

Again, although "complicated" people MUST have an understanding of economics PRIOR to engaging in a business....else MOST people will be fleeced or fail needlessly.

Hello Sidney [email protected]

Man, your computer is slow, but your information is right on time. Your page has saved me more time trouble and money than I can even imagine. I have been in recent frequent conversations with a "friend" who has drawn circles and plied me with tapes. It almost sounds like it could work. I intended to attend my first group meeting of some kind at a school only 12 hours from now. Too close for me. You've saved me from a most dreaded disease I didn't even know I had. Yet.

I most sincerely thank you.

You have created a Web page which appears to be full of half-truths and innuendo about Dex Yeager and Bill Britt.

First, two of the so-called newsgroup postings appear to be from people who haven't done the basic thing *everbody* is told: Show the plan. Show the plan 10 times per month. Show it ten times per month to new *personal* contacts, outside anything you do for your downline. One "gentleman" says he showed the the plan to 19 people. In *SIX* months. Let's see. If he was doing as everyone else is told to do, in six months he would have shown *60* NEW plans. But he CHOSE to only show 19. Then whine about his lack of success? Whine about expenses? The business only works if you do the work necessary to make it work! Did he expect to have Britt or Yeager come make his contacts, set up his appointments, dirve him to the meeting, show the plan and do the followup? No? Then why didn't he do it, like he was supposed to himself? Had he done so, his expenses WOULD have been covered by his retail sales. Remember? Everybody has SOME customers?

Those that say NO to the business are supposed to be solicited to become retail customers? Did he expect to magically have his business succeed? Would he succeed at any other business venture, if he didn't put in the ffort it requires? NO!! Would any other business succeed if you only advertised to 1/3 of your potential customers? I doubt it!

It appears that you are like many people who are either misguided or simply wrong about something about which you have a small amount of knowledge. You run around shouting about how bad this is or that is and you really have no clue.

Am I an Amway distributor? Yes I am. Am I getting rich? No, not yet. I am getting out of my business exactly what I am putting into it. I am not afraid to tell you that my income from Amway sales last year wasn't over $1000.00. I'm sure you think that's not much money. You're right, it isn't. On the other hand, if I had a "normal" business with rent, salaries, light bills, etc. I would have had to file bankruptcy by now.

Your files are the worst sort of lies. There is just enough truth in them to make them sound good but when examined by someone who understands what the person is talking about, the truth of the matter is this:Quit your whining and either work like you mean it, or just admit you can't/won't do what it takes. If you are going to say YOU failed at the business, tell the whole truth. I'm sure this case will turn out in favor of Msr's Yeager & Britt. It's a shame the loser doesn't have to pay court costs.

I'll bet you won't put this dissenting opinion in your Web Site, without editing.

I'm sending you this e-mail via my brother's computer so if you want to reply, please do so to *****. In regards to your Amway page on WWW, I have to diagree. Mind you, I am not a distributor, I am an outsider who was priviledged to work as an intern for Amway last summer. Please remember that some of the distributor force has created a bad reputation for the company name by pushy sales tactic, etc. However, the corporation itself is a wonderful company. It is a Fortune 500 company and Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel are two of America's richest men because of the success they've built since 1959. If you noticed, Amway has started advertising in different magazines. This has never before been done. They are trying to dispell some of the bad reputation that they've gotten over the past several years. I recommend that you come to Grand Rapids (Ada) and take a first hand look at what a wonderful company it is to work for. Thank you,

Thanks for the information,and keeping me from making a mistake!

By using Yahoo I found the Real truths about Am Way. Pretty horrific reading. I trust you will accept that much of the reporting is 'historic' but they could have a reasonable claim to be valid if one 'learns from history'.

In the UK Am Way has been around for quite a few years and a few people have made a lot of money.

I have just been approached by someone to get me to join. After seeing these reports I must admit I am now terrified! However in order to get a balance (not that a number of the reports and stories are not balanced). Does it remain your view that MLM is a sophisticated 'scam' or is it that Am Way has upset a lot of people in the States.

I do agree that the pressure of the joining pitch is that of flattery - you are just the chap to succeed with all your contacts - or subtle hints that you will never be a success at anything if you don't join. So far the mention of books and tapes has not cropped up. Rallies certainly have been mentioned.

Presumably the 'System' is worldwide or has your research indicated that other country groups have a higher level of integrity. Do the executives involved in the Canada fraud still have a controlling influence ? This chap Yeger(?) is he very active outside the US. I have the feeling that he is a definte "maverick" but now too strong for Am Way to act.

You must get a lot of E.Mail - do you have a chance to read many positive messages about Am Way - in fact do you get any?

I was very surprised at the cost comparisions I have been led to belive that over here the prices are very competitive - I await to see a price list now! In a consumer lead market how do they manage to sell ? May be selling the product is very secondary and the aim is to get as many members as possible and bugger the products!

On another subject have you looked a company called Nu Skin which is meant to be the most ethically MLM and has very high ratings from Dun & Bradstreet, Forbes magazine etc.

Aprrecitate your time is valuable but any comments would be appreciated.

Blow me ! Just as I was finishing this, my prospective up line called and yes there is a weekly tape UKL(#)3.00 (USD4.62) weekly/monthly meetings UKL2.00/UKL10.00 four national meetings UKL 29.00 all costs are claimed to be net and non profit making ie they come direct from Am Way at cost. Do those who have gone to Direct Status make the profit? The System seems to have spread.

Why do you have so much negative sayings about Amway corp. and its distributors? I feel sorry for your bad experiences. The company has been good to me and my distributors, and it has made a difference in our life. If there is anything I can help you to become more positive towards this company and its distributors, please feel free to send me an email.

I'd have to "dig" through my Amway journals to unearth the data.... My memory of the activity is probably innaccurate.... However, I believe during the first year that we STP at least once per week. We CONSISTENLY went to the weekly meetings; my wife CONSISTENTLY went to the Woman's Monthly Breakfast; we attended ALL Rallies; we went to the "Annual Family Reunion" Years 1981, 83 & 83 (which cost in 1981 around $500 for the weekend); we signed up for the "Tape of The Week/Month," etc.

Gawd......this is somewhat cathartic

In the beginning, we rounded up all of our close friends and relatives. In retrospect, they were unbelievable patient and "forgiving" of our debacle. I remember "forcing" one of my two younger sisters to join....."for her own good," naturally. Funny, after 15 years, it hasn't been mentioned, but I recall she was pissed as hell at my wife and I....wonder why?? We scoured the local area for people....anyone/accquaintance that we felt that could be "helped" by the business, we were on them mercilessly. Of course, of the ones who capitulated and signed-up - NOTHING came of the effort. The upline DD just kept pushing us.... NO ONE in their group appeared to be able to get anywhere. There was one person who did make it to 7500 PV for a month....I'm positive that they FINANCED nearly 3/4ths of the purchase. But, as I mentioned before, they did make an effort to SELL product. The ******s did have a rather large group for DD, with very little downline (depth)....I think that they actually MADE money. They went RUBY while we were under them.

As the months passed, we did STP less often; however, we were somehow infused with new resolve after attending the "motivational" speaker engagements.

Because of the business, I did acquire valuable skills. For example, I could actually go up to a stranger, extract their life story, call them later and get them to sit in front of a whiteboard to this "wonderful opportunity." Amazing thing, I didn't REALLY GIVE A SHIT about them!!! The "opportunity" allowed my the ability to alienate my college frat bro's. I once arranged to have a "frat" luncheon at a upscale restaurant during the middle of the week.

I made arrangements with a CROWN distributor (*****....I'm sure he must be near death or dead by now...he was in his late 60's in 1981). I had a couple of other Amway types that I knew from my work at **** Co. come to this "frat" event to be "inspired." When everyone got there (I remember about 15 of my bro's attending) they wondered what this geezer was doing there. **** broke into a "what are you doing with your lives, now that you are out of college" spin, and the group went ballistic on me.

Several bro's stood up and LOUDLY told me to FUCK OFF. The head waiter had to come to the table and ask several people to leave.....If memory serves me well, I had to pick up at least half of the lunch tab....they split w/out paying. Later, after everyone else had left, Grant consoled me with his wisdom. "They don't understand. Sometimes it's better that you find out now who your REAL friends are."

What BS! My name was "SHIT FACE/HEAD/ASS (Insert expletive here). Only one of the people that attended has ever talked with me since then. A PROUD moment in my life.

I went "out on the limb," as the tapes suggested. I actually got the Department Head of the School of Business from **** to sit down and listen to "The Plan." He laughed his ass off!!! (Dr. *****, a published EXPERT in organizational behavior management). Nonetheless, I kept going. After all, the Amway types just looked at my experiences as fodder for future stories that I COULD TELL at inspirational meetings.

Anway, enough for now. I have to get back to work.

If you find my ramblings interesting, let me know. I have plenty more stories. Including, my favorite technique these days for handling people that prospect ME at all of the suggested spots (malls, grocery stores, restaurants, etc.) It is guaranteed to take the wind out of the sails of ANY low-level individual in Amway.

It was with great interest I read every word on your page. Here is a brief version of my Amway experience. No doubt there are thousands who could simply substitute their names in the story.

My wife and I began in Amway in 1992. I had seen the plan before and passed, however, this time, the personal situation was different. I was now married and my wife was stuck in a job she hated and I myself had finished college only months before, and had decided I did not want to go into the field I had prepared for. Therefore, Amway looked like the answer.

We went to several meetings to see the plan. I kept hearing people referring reverentially to this person, Dexter Yager. I wondered about the materialism that seemed to run rampant and questioned my upline about it. I was assured that nobody was materialistic, that was only the best way to relate to the largest percentage of people.

I soon went to my first weekend function. I rode with my upline, leaving at midnight on a Friday and driving all night, arriving Saturday morning. A breakfast, followed by an all-day seminar and rally, still without sleeping. After the function, everyone went to a restaurant to "spend time with the upline." Finally we left for home at about three in the morning on Sunday, not having slept since Thursday night. We were not told we would be following this itinerary. We drove all night, trading drivers every 20 minutes to keep from falling asleep while driving. We finally arrived home at 600 am Sunday morning. It was the first of many sleepless nights and weekends. It was the last time we did not drive a function alone.

While at the function, I was allowed backstage as a reward for my hard work, having reached 1000 pv in my first month. There, I, along with my upline, scurryed about picking up cigarette butts and candy wrappers before the speaker arrived. I wondered about the apparent superficiality of the whole affair and soon began to have serious doubts about who these speakers were and why they were so lofty so as to not be able to step on a candy wrapper.

I was constantly reprimanded for not being enthusiastic enough by whooping and hollering with the rest of the upline. However, that was not me and I refused to do it. I was also castigated for occasionally leaving the restaurants after meeting before 100 am.

I put my doubts somewhere deep in my subconscious, for the simple fact that I wanted the financial rewards I had been told were just around the corner. I soon began to become consumed. The only thing I thought, lived, and breathed from morning until bedtime was "the business (you never heard the A-word). I began to think of every person I knew and met as future prospects, and instead of just meeting people, began to analyze them to find the best prospecting approach. In the meantime, I went to every function, major function, open meeting. In between, my sponsor and I had phone sessions, in which we would sit in the living room and he would take my phone list and tell me who to call next. I was told I was letting my wife down and not doing my job as a husband if I did not make the next call or prospect the next person. I continued to do so, in spite of the fact I was not comfortable. I was continually told I had to leave my "comfort zone" if I wanted the rewards.

Of course, I was on the weekly tape program. I was soon told that if I wanted to really be successful, I needed to get on the Go-Getter tape as well. I was then told that I needed the weekly Christian tape to sustain my faith. Soon I was consuming 3 tapes weekly. I had sponsored 7 or 8 people my first month, all of whom ordered tapes. Soon their enthusiasm waned. I was told that the tapes that took one week to begin took four or more weeks to stop coming. I was eating about fifteen tapes a week and no one to buy them. When we discontinued the business, I threw about $1500 worth of tapes in the trash. I was told that tapes went down the line, but under no circumstances would they come back up.

Soon, my only relationships were within the business. I was discouraged from associating with friends and relatives who had not joined the business.

I permanently lost several friends. I soon did not speak to my parents, except to drop my daughter off for baby-sitting while we went off to yet another meeting. I was told to celebrate the people who had quit, because that meant I was one loser closer to my success. The people who had previously been close to me were referred to in the group as "quitters", "losers", and "nobodies." I am ashamed to admit that I also took part in this name calling. It is somewhat amusing to imagine our names inserted into the same conversation, which no doubt took place after our exit. We also sent postcards to the quitters from the exotic locations we visited for functions, telling them how much fun and success we were enjoying, of course at the behest of our omniscient upline. Of course we now receive these postcards as well, just dessert I suppose. And of course it was all a lie, we could in no way afford to go to these places, but did so anyway.

Of course, like many postings on your page, we were also encouraged to take all of our problems to our upline direct in monthly "counseling sessions".

At the time, we were living on about $1400 a month. We went to our directs primarily for financial help. It is funny how they wouldn't allow you to spend $7 to relax for one day at the golf course except as a reward for reaching 4000 pv, but we were encouraged to run up credit card after credit card and to do whatever was necessary to get to the next function. By the time we quit, we had about 4 or 5 credit cards maxed out, mostly for gasoline, meals, hotels, and airline tickets to get to functions and meetings. Of course no objective person in his right mind would have given anyone this kind of financial advice, but we were told to hold on until our "time came." In the meantime we had garage sales to sell off many of our possessions to get money to sustain the business. We were also told to eliminate anything negative from our lives. No newspapers, no television news, no contact with quitters and naysayers. Therefore our lives revolved 100% around our upline and what little downline we could muster at any one time. I sank to almost a cult- like involvement until I realized what was happening to me. I then took a hard look at the situation and, still, reluctantly decided we had to quit before we were forced to go bankrupt.

Every time we left a meeting or a function, we were told by all of our upline, "we love ya'll". Well, surprise, after we quit, we received only one phone call out of this group of people who supposedly loved us so much and had such great belief in us. Amazingly enough, I believe that the principle of the business is a sound one. However, Amway is not what is sold. What is sold is the "system". Of course meaning Dexter Yager's support system. At an open meeting, you heard the word "Amway" mentioned once and of course you did not hear a word or see a product. The audience was told about this amazing man who had made a life of prosperity possible for them. I realized it did not involve sales or products, it was wholly an idea. I was told to forget about retailing and that the only way to build the business was to find more distributors. We ended up losing about $10,000 a year. When you make $1400 a month, is does not take a lot of math to realize that it is a losing proposition. Almost 100% of this money went to tapes, books, seminars, open meeting and major functions. I was more a Yager distibutor than an Amway distributor.

I found that Amway people are the most shallow and money- consumed people I have ever met. The only thing I ever got out of the business was a mountain of debt and a string of broken relationships.

I could probably go on for another hour. However, I will try to calm down and conclude. I greatly enjoyed your page and I am curious as to your past experience or relationship with Amway. I am also curious as to the status of the class action lawsuit. I have been unable to find any info that is less than one year old. I greatly believe that the potential for profits is misleading. I was told that if I were to sponsor thirty personals, I would become an emerald, due to about one in ten becoming a direct. From the numbers I have seen on this and other pages, that is grossly overstated. If you can give me info on the suit and how to maybe become involved, please let me know.

Hey There!

I have just finished reading your page about Amway. Let me first commend you on a fairly comprehensive analysis, and considering the topic, one of the more fair criticisms of Amway that I have seen. However, I would like to comment on a few things that I have gathered through personal experience.

I have been an Amway distributor for about 2 months now. I was shown the plan by a musician friend of mine(I am also a musician). It took me about 3 weeks to decide to do the business, and I had seen it once before. I was aware of the expenses, and since I am a college students they hit home particularly hard. However, I am more convinced than ever that this a legitimate and fair business opportunity.

Before getting in I tried to find as many stories of people who failed at the business as I could. I do not do things like this easily, and I was worried because of the numerous things I had seen. I noticed one VERY important thing amongst all of these stories. I did not see ONE story that told of how they did EVERYTHING their upline told them to do(most importantly, show the plan) and they still failed to build a business. I see them talk about how much money they spent, but NOWHERE have I heard, seen or been told that spending money on this guarantees ANY kind of success. Perhaps you have seen a story like this, and if you have I would appreciate it if you conveyed them to me, as I can still get most of my money back if I find a significant number of these stories.

That is probably the most important thing. There are few other things in my experience I have found different. For one, when I first had some trouble with financially supporting tapes, functions, etc. I talked to someone in my upline about it. He recommended getting some RETAIL CUSTOMERS!!!!! He did not recomend I sell anything, go without anything vital or drop out of school. I have since then worked a deal with my college fraternity where they buy products from me, and I donate half of my profits(retail- wholesale, not PV bonuses) to the fraternity. If this goes even slowly, it will easily pay for my business expenses.(not to mention help out my fraternity considerably!)

I buy only what I am able to buy, and never any more. I do not have a credit card, and would not use it to build this business. I think the main reason you get people suing, etc. is this. WWDB(The west coast version of the Britt system) avocates 8 things to build your business. Among these are go to functions, read books, listen to tapes, etc. However, bye far the most important(STRONGLY advocated on the tapes I have listened to) is showing the plan! People could do all of the other things religiously, but if they fail that one, they will never get anywhere. I really have to go now, but I wanted to thank you for your page. I am always looking for problems with this business, and am open to see them. I deliberately seek out negative on it, and find tham most often that builds my belief that I am doing something intelligent and honest. I would be delighted if you responded in some fashion.

Sidney,

Just a quickie.

I was discussing AmWay today with another friend and recounting my investigations.

He came up with the view that the tapes have subliminal messages in them. I claimed this was illegal in most western countries and others - he agreed that they were illegal on TV, radio, cinema, shops etc - implying any place that has 'public' broadcasting but that in private 'closed shop' distribution it was not outlawed.

Any views or suspected evidence. We can't understand how normal well balanced educated people can fall for the 'system' if proper checks are made. If a novice like me can find out then anybody can - Diamond next year!!

By the way a current chant over here is - See you on the beaches - (implying lots of time and exotic holidays) but I wonder if the inner circle mean the punters will be washed up with the flotsam ?

Hey again! I just finished my rehearsal, and a couple of other things occured to me while I was sitting there.

The most significant statistic possible would be what percentage of people who actually do the 8 core steps consistently(your $500 in expenses is derived from these 8 steps) end up doing well in the business. Your statistics seem to be a little misleading, in that you talk about how few people make it, but then assume that everyone is keeping these 5 steps going. Really, this is the only significant percentage, and as far as I can tell it would be very difficult if not impossible to get a reliable measurement.

Regarding prices: If I have any problems with Amway, this would probably be it. The core line of products are reasonable values, some even real bargains. However, the catalog prices(Personal Shoppers, Office, etc.) do tend to run a bit high. However, it is important to remember that these are CATALOGS. For many of the higher priced items it would only be fair to compare the prices to other catalogs. I might accept that they are still high, even when compared to other catalogs. But, WWDB does not advocate buying these products if they are more expensive than what you can get at a local store. All in all, I think Amway products are a bit overpriced, but many people(cusomers) are more than willing to pay that to have other benefits(Home delivery,100% guarantee, helping enviroment etc.).

Finally, regarding cultism. I have a lot of experience with Cultism, as you have described it. I have been in musical ensembles, sports teams and religious groups all of which were at least as cultish as WWDB. One musical group I was in in high school(called **** Singers) was particularly "Cultish". We practiced over 10 hours a week, minimum. We had two camps a year, entire weekends where we sang and practiced for hours at a time. The group was lead by a very charismatic man, who occasionaly used intimidation, fear, etc. In other words, all of the things we have been warned to look out for in cults. I saw the people in this group far more than my own family, and it had an effect on many of my other activities. In spring we had an international tour, which we did fundraisers for. We sold pizzas, something I was particularly good at. They were overpriced and most people said they weren't very good, but since I was "manipulated" to sell them by our leader, I called more people and sold to more people than I ever will in Amway. Yet, the total effect of the group was enourmously positive. I would never have traded it for anything, and look back on it as one of the best things that has happened to me(even though I STILL owe over $600 from my last tour!)

I know, yeah but..... Amway, and WWDB in particular, are not much different from such a group. Yes, you get pumped up to go out and recruit some people. My wrestling team would spend an hour before each match pumping up, by yelling, chanting, running, and other various cult activities. Yes, you begin to appreciate the people in WWDB more than you do just the average Joe of the street. I appreciated and loved the people in Main Street, and do to this day, simply because we shared so much and had so much in common. Yes, the leaders in WWDB use basic psychological "manipulation" to keep people going and to get them excited about their futures. So do teachers, doctors, politicians, musical directors, coaches, military leaders, priests, CEO's ad infinitum! It is the best and only way to get anything significant accomplished in this world.

Gosh, I hope I didn't rattle on to much there! I do mean what I say, and I hope that you don't just read this and write me off as another wacko. I am young, but I have experienced a lot and have maintained a positive outlook on life. Some of my friends tell me my trust in people will be betrayed and I will become like them, bitter and pessimistic. But I do not see many of them doing what they really love in life. I though all of this stuff long before I saw Amway. Thank you very much if you read all of this. Again, I reiterate that I am open to comments, and if you find people that did ALL 8 steps consistently for a period of time that failed, PLEASE tell me about it.

I want to thank you for all the information you put on the net about Amway and its distribution politics. You helped me have a more objective idea of what it is and make me decide to stay away from it. I think that are people like you that make the net a very useful place to visit. Thank you again.

After looking at your page "Amway--The Untold Truths" I have just one question. Why?

I have purused your different articles and am wondering why you have spent time posting so many negative commentaries about the Amway business.

Yes I am an Amway distributor. Yes I am a Christian.

After reading the description of cultish practices at Amway functions and comparing them to what transpires at my functions I am convinced that I am NOT involved in a cult.

I have remained a distributor for several years because I know that the Amway produced products that I use are superior to those available through normal stores. I have tracked the money I have saved several times.

Through the training obtained at seminars and suggested books I have saved my marriage and have gone into business for myself (computer related) with results far beyond what I would have expected.

I am not sure what your purpose is in posting this information, but I do know that this material does not apply to all Amway organizations.

I welcome your reply and also look forward to seeing information showing the positive results people have obtained through their Amway experiences.

What's going on with this Britt/yager lawsuit? Do you think you are getting a little extreme with this? They did absolute nothing of the sort you mentioned. Tell me what the sherman act says. Then tell me what they did to violate that. People have to sign a contract to buy the tapes. They are not coerced. If you sign the contract you have a choice to buy the tapes. You don't have to. Bill Britt created the tape station to benefit people in the business. It's like you went to school and the professor tells you that need this book to understand what's going on in the class. If you don't have that book you are not going to survive period. The same with the tapes. How are you going to know what's going on with your business if you don't know what to do? That's what the tapes are designed for. I've tried to build the business without listening to the tapes and it is tough. I was not coerced to listen to the tapes. I know you are not going to print this anywhere. But I believe you are not going to win the lawsuit. I don't know what organization you are in but trying to bust up amway and bill britt is an impossible task unless you can build something better. There is nothing better. The average amwayer is only doing 38 pv. That's sad. Try to put down those people. You can't because you were one of them. If you build it right then you would be successful. Try to build a business, any business. You'll have a hard time. The starting cost is extremely high. The failure rate is extremely high. Have you tried to use the In Home Shopping Service?? I did and it made customers buy more. The idea that the products is too high won't stand under the purpose because the products are supposed to be inelastic. That means that people will buy the products no matter what the price because the service. You forgot to include in your price comparision sheet how much it costs to drive a car. An average of .29 cents a mile!!!! I have never seen anybody become financially successful saving money. Your case will not stand. My address is *****. Please tell me what's wrong with this.

I just wanted to let you know how enlightening your articles were to me. I feel like one of those all-day suckers you see in the old looney- tune cartoons. I've always had quite a few unanswered questions about Amway and its practices and your articles shed quite a bit of light on them. I've only been a distributor in Amway for about three months now but I've already invested a substantial amount of money and time in tapes, books, functions, rallies, seminars and, yes, products (I estimate in the excess of $2500). What really got me was the price comparisons and the Consumer Reports article. I've always wondered about the high prices. Any savings mentioned in catalogs are negated by shipping and handling costs and state taxes. I imagine if all claims were really true about the superiority of Amway products, Americans would be shopping from Amway in droves. Also, it's true about Amway's ten retail customer minimum rule. When I brought that question up to my upline, I was assured that the rule was not enforced. I guess what it really came down to was that I was constantly told by my upline to be "loyal" to the upline and the corporation and its products. I imagine that's why Jay Van Andel and Rich DeVoss are the 5th and 6th richest men in America now! I've been suckered before and it looks like I've been suckered again. Is there any real honest ways to make a decent amount of money out there? If there is one thing to say about Amway, they do tell the truth when they tell you that you can't get rich by working for someone else.

Please do not use my name if you use this letter, however, I am interested in hearing from you and any other stories you may have about Amway.

I briefly went through the material on Amway you presented and it is very close to my situation in a lot of aspects

My wife is a hardcore member that has not made any money from this, but the fact she has spent 2 years at it, spent a lot of money on the motivational materials (which incidentally were supposed to come out of the profits), and the fact that she is very secretive about how much is being spent. The original agreement we, as husband and wife, based on the amway pitch was if nothing happened in a year she would quit. Are you ready for a surprise? After the time limit was up the agreement was forgotten. (It has been suggested to her by Amway types we may not be marritally compatible)

I intend to print off hardcopies of your material for later study. I'd love to be part of the class ation suit, but that looks like it is just for former or current Amwayers.

I would appreciate any info you might be able to supply that might help us out. (Whenever I say anything negative you would think I've persoally attacked Jesus, Budda, and Bill Clinton)

Thanks and looking forward to hearing from you.

Congratulations, you have managed to invest a whole lot of time compiling information from a bunch of uninformed scientists, with a narrow perspective.

They argue against the business for one reason or another. Maybe you could have these researches analize why we shouldn't get out of bed in the morning because of the high probability that we are going to fail.

I am sure you are aware (but are unwilling to publish) the reasons to do the business. 97% of Americans at age 65 or older are either dead, broke, or still working. Keep spending your time at a job and you will end up there, too.

Amway is a business, it carries risks, it has overhead just like any other business. However, the risks are far less than a traditional business.

Welcome to the world of business!

4000PV

P.S. $700 net income _after expenses_ in 10 months, EAT MY DUST!

I read the info on the truth about amway. Very interesting. I was wondering if you have any information on a spin off group (from amway) called Network 21? This group has been approaching my neighbors and friends and sound very much like a amway scam. They claim that if you join and follow their training that you can be financially independent within 1-2 years.

I'm worried about my friends, that they may be getting involved in something they will regret.

Interesting and valuable material (Amway - The Untold Truths).

I was wondering if you know of a definitive list of Amway "sayings" (those glib, trite putdowns or responses they come up with). With a little planning (sometimes not too much!) it's easy to turn them around on the speaker.

Such as: "Power of Positive Thinking" ---> "Positive power of thinking"

"My brain's been cleansed" ----> (too easy to mention)

"don't want to listen to criticism, only information" ---->

"don't want to listen to propaganda, only information"

etc. etc.

If there isn't such a list maybe I'll put one together. Some of their soundbites are so proposterous they're funny!

PS Keep up the good work. Folks like you, Butterfield et al are saints.

Hi Sidney,

I've just accessed the web page re Amway. There's a lot to read (and I haven't read it yet!) However, it is interesting to encounter opposition to the Amway "hype".

My wife and I gave them three years of our lives before finally giving up and becoming "dead fish" according to one description of the people who are outside Amway. Of course, like so many other people we never made any money and indeed spent a considerable sum. In retrospect, the experience was something like being absorbed into a religious sub-culture which cultivated a "family" kind of pressure to conform. It was impossible to be realistic about the "business" because any criticism was denounced as "negative thinking" and "edification" was the watchword. In other words we must describe everything pertaining to our business development as "awsome, unbelievable, incredible, etc. I suppose it can be said that the motivational tapes and books etc did at least give us optimism and hope for a better life but in practice the odds were very much stacked against us.

All our old Amway friends have stopped associating with us because by dropping out we are a negative influence on their positive attitude. I could go on but I'm sure you have heard it all before. Anyway, thanks for some interesting reading material. Best wishes,

Dear Mr. Schwartz:

My sister is involved in Amway and is a staunch believer that she'll never have to work again. I've read your posts but am not very business- minded. No matter what I (or my family) say to her, she always has an answer (the same old BS such as "we don't work" or "it's not a job"). What is the ONE thing I could say to her that would disprove the whole thing and show her that either she has to be incredibly luck, or that she's wasting her youth while she should be in college.

Thanks.

Dear Sir, I don't think you have a clue. I am assuming that you are a reasonable, ethical person until proved otherwise. I think you or your cohorts have done some terrific research, and I have re-evaluated myself to make sure I'm not taking advantage of anyone in my group. I have also gone to each of my downlines and expressed my sincere desire for them to notify me if they have any questions or concerns about the ethics/practices of myself, the "system", Amway. I want them to know that it is critical that we maintain our ethics throughout our lives and partnerships together. I have told them, again, that the system is entirely voluntary, and they should make their decisions based on whatever evidence they believe is pertinent to their goals. I should not have to treat them like dumb animals, and they told me so one way or another; it is only because of the volume of your complainees that I spoke to them as if they weren't mature adults. There is a serious problem in this country with lack of personal responsibility for one's choices and life. It is appparent in our media and the desire for so many to seek law suits and settlements with deep pocket defendants. I believe you knowingly or unknowingly are thriving off this lack of responsibility. I don't think you have a clue. I don't intend to critique your arguments piece by piece at this time. There are too many contradictions to correct in your conclusions. I would be glad to deal piece by piece later, but at this time I don't even know if you care about the truth. If you do, then by all means please correspond. But unless I hear from you, I'll have to assume that you're just following some agenda without regard for the ethics or effects you may have on decent people trying to better themselves. I will tell you a few things about myself. I spent hours in the USF library looking at micro-fiche of any mention of Amway in periodicals such as Forbes, etc., going back many years. When I was shown the plan, I knew nothing about Amway except the opinions of co-workers. As far as "they" said Amway was either illegal, didn't work, was a cult, was rinky-dink. But I was making a finacial decision. I worked in the school system, and none of my co-workers were financial planners. That's why I went to the library, because my families future required more than just stories relayed through many mouths. You may find it quite interesting that my favorite article in my research was the one from Forbes about the "black hats", Dexter Yager, and the "pushing" of the "system". I saw many positive articles, but it was that critical article that I made copies of. I still have it because it was the article that inspired me the most, until your info.. You see. I was not in Amway when I read that article; in fact, I didn't get in till three weeks later, and I was more excited about being in the Yager system than about being in Amway. The article condemns Yager for selling the tapes/books/rallies, and then talks about how he has grown from a nobody in '64 to a third of Amway's business. I think he has a bigger share of Amway's business today. The reason is simple: The system increases the rapidity with which his group duplicates. There is much evidence to support this, and I find it peculiarly lacking that you show know evidence that an Amway distributor can build as fast or as big without the system. Yager has more Diamonds and Directs in his group than other lines of sponsorship because he offers a potential distributor a better product, i.e. a business that grows faster and larger than the competition. Your multitudinous arguments against the system all imply that a distributor can build the business just as easily without the system, you just leave out one thing: any evidence of that. I know it bothers people that he's making a lot of money on the system and I don't understand why, unless they support an ideology other than free enterprise. I KNEW he and possibly others were making a mint on the system way before I went to any meeting, listened to any tape, or got in. I also knew that the hundreds of speakers, authors, and companies involved in self growth programs(such as Ziglar, Covey, Robbins) commanded enormous sums. Bully for them. And... check this out: If I knew this from simple research at a public library and basic analysis, any other mature adult should know that too. There is no great hidden secret; my five year old can figure out that a cassette tape doesn't cost five dollars to make. And before I went to my first rally, I was not so stupid as to think the ticket money was donated to Mother Theresa. Do you really think Americans think it cost 75 cents to make a coke, or 70 dollars to make tennis shoes? Of course not, they know someone is getting rich off of EVERY dollar they spend and they CHOOSE to spend it with their eyes open just like I did before I got in and still continue to do. Futhermore, I'm sure most adults realize that if they have a job at a private company, that their sole purpose there is to make the owners and stockholders wealthy. We don't live in a commune. We trade our money and our time all of our lives, knowing full well that we're making someone else wealthy.

There is nothing secret about this. I hope Yager makes billions. I've never bought anything from the system to please my upline in any way shape or form. I don't give a rip about pleasing my upline, if anything, I want to please my downline. My upline has GIVEN me suits, ties, shirts, a beautiful watch, and I in turn have given my downline boxes of free tapes/books, clothes, etc.

We are adults and business owners. I don't expect my upline to give me a red cent, or treat me like a cult worshipping groupie that doesn't have the mental faculties to make my own decisions. It is my business! Not Amway's, not Dexter's, mine. And, oh by the way, these people crying about investing 500 a month in the system, or 5000 a year in expenses need to find a nice, safe government job. My father and I have other businesses outside of Amway. We worked not 3 nights a week, not even the 5 to 6 nights a week that you think is so demanding. Try 7 days a week for 9 years so we could leave a legacy behind for our families. Try 12 to 16 hour days for years with no guarantees just to pursue our dreams. Try overhead of twenty thousand a month and making sure the employees got paid even if we didn't. Amway and the Yager system is NOTHING. It's a cake walk compared to our "traditional" ventures. I got a kick out of the guy that worked Amway 3 nights a week. I wonder how well he'd do at IBM on 3 nights a week. Amway is a VERY expensive hobby; it is a cheap business. Just try buying a Subway business and working 3 nights a week. If that didn't work, maybe he could sue Subway.

I started with the assumption that you are a decent and ethical person. You are aligning yourself with people that are not willing to put out the efforts of a Ray Krok, Ford, DeVos, and yet want the results. You can't say they were told it was easy because you've documented numerous tapes that told them to work it hard and make sacrifices. I don't want to be one-sided, if I see people fighting over the rally take, I'm going to say something. That excerpt made me disgusted too. But if we are to keep a watchful eye on fellow distributors for inappropriate ethics, and we should, let's also be wary of those who want to win lawsuits when they knew what they were doing from the start. 99% of your information is not a revelation to me; I knew it BEFORE getting in, the information is there for all. I've also told my downline about the money made on the system; it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, but it takes a person without self-respect to sue because they quit on themself. "Oh judge, I was just a poor dumb groupie, I just had to do whatever those evil people said, or they wouldn't be my friend anymore. Boo hoo hoo." They need to grow up and take responsibility for themself, even if they think they made a mistake.

P.S. I'm not a Diamond. Not even a Direct. I'm at the bottom paying the price. Your info hurts because it can directly or indirectly destroy people's dreams, and also affect my livelihood. I'm building the business for my two kids, and we deserve a chance to do it right without people actively trying to destroy it.

Amway is also here in Japan and has many `cult-like' followers! The products seem to be only slightly different-but three times as expensive! I like the taste of their chewable vitamins but they seem so pricey!! What have you found out,if anything,about the vitamins??

Isn't it a great country where someone as ignorant as the person who put together this ANTI-AMWAY site is allowed to voice their opinion. What a waste of money. That law suit is so ridiculous.

As a direct distributor in the Amway business, I fell perplexed by what seems to me to be an effort by someone who has nothing else better to do than write a lot of untruths about what Amway really is. But I guess it's all a matter of perceptions. I reached the Direct Distributor level because I worked hard at it. And it took 18 months of hard work to do it. I've never lied to or tricked anyone into this business. All the business support materials I've purchased have been purely voluntary. Yes, there is a small profit on the tools, but I can honestly say that 99% of my earnings have come from product movement alone! Why don't you write about what Amway really is. All Amway is is an opportunity to do something financially that you probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to do otherwise. I am not disputing about the goings ons about the Yeager or Britt organizations, but I am not in that organization. I've never been pressured into doing anything, ever! I got into this business because I saw this as a way to accomplish some things my job would never allow me to do. The motivational tools you refer to are in my opinion an essential part of anyone's success whether in this business or any other endeavor. Talk to anyone who is successful at ANYTHING and he'll tell you that motivation is and always will be a key to success. Have you ever seen a successful person who was not motivated to be successful. C'mon! With all the negative you get from the media and well meaning friends and co-workers, it's no wonder that low self-esteem is fast becoming America's No. 1 problem. Most people don't believe their worth succeeding and it's because most people are fast losing any chance of retiring with any financial dignity. Since you put a lot of weight on statistics, why don't you tell everyone what the Federal government knows about where people end up after working their whole life. Ask the Social Security Administration where people end up after working all their lives. Or life insurance companies for that matter. Why don't you state the success rate of conventional businesses. If you trace the economy of our country, you'll see a trend that is very unnerving. Look in your own pocket book. I bet you had more spending money when you were 18 than you do today. Or maybe you're just one of those people who can't stand to see someone else succeed. The Amway business has helped more people in America reach incomes over $50,000 a year than any other business in the country. It has also helped more people reach incomes of over $100,000 a year than any other business. Is there something wrong with that? All those lies you wrote about someone who filed bankruptcy because of Amway is BS! This is strictly a VOLUNTARY business. Those people undoubtedly had a lot of financial problems BEFORE Amway. You see, the game of life is changing. Those statistics don't lie and all Amway is is a business where people at least have a chance. As a Direct, I earn approximately what you wrote about. And I'll tell you what, It sure beats the HELL out of Social Insecurity. You know what's really a rip- off though, the only way I was able to reach this level of success was by helping some other people do the same thing. Gee, how terrible! Post this if you want, I doubt you have the guts.